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December 18, 2006

Comments

Christine

On a tangent, welcome to Campion Hall:

http://www.campion.ox.ac.uk

Fr. M.

As the Anglican/Episcopalian Church breaks into pieces and the pieces into smaller fragments and the fragments into dust we are reminded of how essential unity is. It is important to remember that, while Our Lord does not demand uniformity of us, after all, the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church is one with many rites, He does demand unity of us. When we break from Peter, there is no hope for authentic unity with the Mystical Body of Christ.

Fr. M.

Truro Church, by the way, is where Justice Thomas attended before his reversion to Catholicsm. The congregation always has a strong presence at the March for Life and seem more evangelical than Episcopalian.

Old Dominion Tory

Seeing as this fragmentation is not over by any means, the Diocese of Arlington and the Diocese of Richmond should establish Anglican Rite parishes or hold Anglican rite Masses in already established parishes as an aid to and means of evangelization.
Our Lady of Walshingham, pray for us.

Mrs. Peperium

Father M., there is much here to go over. For those on the outside looking in, this must all seem so rididculous. But from the perspective of someone who was there and was seriously tramautized, and offended, by the disobedience on display by those in collars claiming to be heirs to the Apostolic Sucession, this is a dreadful situation for all involved.

Now is not the time to get in arguments over the true Apostolic Sucession claims as that was something I had to accept I would never be able to figure out. What I came to understand through the disobedience on display among my former clergy and very high profile members is that mortal and venial sins are very true. (I had my own disobedience to address but my disobedience was different as I was never trying to alter 2000 years of Christian teaching. My disobedience was concerning living out that teaching...)

The Church teaches, and the Anglican Church used to, when someone is in mortal sin, the Holy Spirit departs. Therefore, even if they are part of the Apstolic Sucession, because of the departure of the Holy Spirit (our guide) they will soon believing things that are not Godly... This is why the need for repentence is so integral to the Christian faith. What those in Truro and Falls Church have been pounding on the door of the Episcopal Church headquarters for years has been repentence. They have grown exhausted and now fear for their own salvation by their association to the Episcopal headquarters. As they move away from their association from the Episcopal Church, their eyes that have been blinded by the fight, will begin to clear and they probably have much trouble ahead trying to determine, now that there is no common enemy, what they all believe. Many of them will have enormous difficulties with the 39 Articles. This is the inherent weakness to Evangelicalism. They just want to believe in what the bible teaches, what it says. Well doctrine is drawn from what the bible says as well as revelation. Many people refuse to grasp that...

Dorothy Sayers' book, Creed or Chaos was enormously helpful in understanding this simple but very complex in reality truth. Dorothy never came to Rome. Like C.S. Lewis she remained an Anglican. I wonder what they would be today.

Mrs. Peperium

Old Dominion Tory, what you say has much wisdom but I think in the long run, people must come to Rome for the right reasons. If the Church were to start practicing Anglican rite now to address the complaints of Anglicans, then I would doubt the sincerity of the conversions...

Becoming Catholic is not easy. You are no longer master of your ship. But when you've run your ship onto some serious shoals and all is threatened, it is a most welcome relief to hand over the controls....

Fr. M

Mrs. P., May I suggest Benedict XVI's, "Called to Communion."? I think you would find it helpful.

Tory, From your lips to God's ears. I must admit that I do not like the idea of the "Anglican Use" Mass to lure people over, but I do think that it is a blessing for those who have crossed the Tiber, found the Faith, and prefer to worship in this beautiful rite. This would nurture the faith of many who, over the years, have journeyed from Canterbury to Rome; not the least of which are the convert sons of Nashotah House who could offer this Mass beautifully.

Mrs. Peperium

I love Nashotah House.....

I do agree with you Father. Some of our fellow former Episcopalian-turned-Catholic friends really would like the Anglican rite. They are guessing Africa is where it will first come about with the African Anglicans... I must admit I haven't a clue as to what the Anglican rite truly is. This will sound so cloying and silly, but being Catholic is so wonderful inherently consistent in truth and beauty, I can't imagine needing something more in tune with my former Anglican heritage bent...

I've come along way from my reception when my instinct upon being annointed was to to scream "Sanctuary!" and lay on the floor while listening the ushers bar the door... I didn't do that, you might be pleased to know. The Holy Spirit's gift of fortitude refrained me...

Mrs. Peperium

Father, I was just downstairs up to my elbows in cocoanut for macaroons trying to figure out why you suggested the book you did. Then I realised that in my haste, I had given you and probably everyone else the wrong idea.

I accept completely the Apostolic claim of the Catholic Orders. It is the Anglican claim I do not accept. Though there was a very exceptional Jesuit priest in our area, the late Father Hardon, who did believe that part of the Anglicans are valid. The validity, if I understand correctly, hangs on the fact that the Anglican priests who left Rome for England with Henry violated their vows casting doubt on the validity of those who they then ordained. Add further the ex-communication of Queen Elizabeth and you've got a ripe old tangled mess... Father Hardon believed, if I recall correctly that there were two Anglican priests who did not do whatever it was that would have thrown themselves into question per validity and therefore, whoever they ordained and whoever those ordained and so on and so on and so on are considered valid...

However, when the new Presiding Bishop of the United States, Kate Schori Jefferts, gives her first sermon out of the box and in it she not only talks of bunny rabbits but transgenders Jesus, one is not commiting a sin or, heavens no, judging too much by questioning the validity of Anglican Orders...

Old Dominion Tory

If you want to know about the Anglican Rite, Mrs. Peperium, then please look up the website of Our Lady of Walshingham Church in Texas. A beautiful church.
Bishop Jeffries continues to transgender Christ and starts babbling about "Goddess," then the transformation of the Episcopal Church into a well-meaning real-estate holding company will come a lot sooner than we might think.

Fr. M.

Mrs. P.,
I apologize for any adverse effects my comments may have had upon your coconut macaroons. I love and respect anything coconut and so I hope that no harm came to them that your family and friends may enjoy this magnificent substance.

Yes, I misconstrued your remarks. Anyhow, for anyone looking for an incredible book on unity with Peter, look no further than the small-but-mighty 165 page book, "Called to Communion."

I, too, was blessed to know Fr. John Hardon. He was a living saint and a great model of priesthood. He was also an expert on Protestantism and was perpetually miffed that Protestant churches would invite him to talk about Catholicism but not Protestantism. Go figure.

*Warning!Potential boredom ahead!*

In 1896, Leo XIII, in the document, "Apostolicae Curae" famously declared Anglican orders, "absolutely null and utterly void." This was based on the fact that when Cramner rewrote the rite of ordination he omitted any reference to the sacrificial priesthood as the Anglicans were no longer to believe in the doctrine of transubstantiation. Hence, the orders were deemed invalid. Perhaps Fr. Hardon was referencing some of the valid but illicit Catholic lines, such as the Utrecht Succession Old Catholics. High Anglicans and other similar but seperate groups would seek out these bishops so they could obtain "valid" orders. Hence, valid orders in the Anglican Communion, with a few exceptions, died out shortly after Cramner.

Fr. M.

Mrs. P.,
You were blessed to be received into the va-va-va-voom uber-Catholic Grotto Church as you once mentioned. I am blessed to be a great diocese with a strong faith many fine Masses and lots of Latin. Elsewhere are many who come from nosebleed-high Episcopal churches to Catholicism seeking the Truth only to encounter folk Masses (will they EVER go away???) and all manner of indecorous liturgical behavior. In the Anglican Use Mass the language is like that of the 1928 Book of Common Prayer,it's similar to a Tridentine Mass in English, with the priest facing liturgical east and traditional elements from the Serum rite. No Advent blue or guitars lurking there...
The Anglican Use isn't only for former Episcopalians and can be a saving grace for those who are just looking for a fitting Mass in which to recieve Our Lord. If you ever do get to one I would love to hear your rection.

You can explore more at www.anglicanuse.org

Speaking of the Grotto Church, my coworker in the Virginia Vinyard and occasional traveling companion, Dappled Things (www.donjim.blogspot.com), has a link to the ancient, candle-lit Rorate Masses which the Grotto offers during Advent. That is truly a manifestation of the Roman Rite in all its splendor, celebrating the Advent season in a fitting and beautiful way.

Mrs. Peperium

The Father Hardon theory was presented to us during RCIA primarily because we had a few Episcopalians in the class who, even though they thought the priests in the Episcopal Church were off track, took great offense at the Catholic Churh's declaration of null and void. In fact, if you really want to ever mess with an Episcopalian at a cocktail party, when they begin to complain about their priesthood, you can just say something along the lines like "Yes, their behavior certainly gives creedence to the Catholic declaration of a null and void priesthood. Looks like the Catholic Church knew what it was talking about, huh?..." You'll never be invited back for drinks but that can be a good thing too.

Assumption Grotto is wonderful. At the Maundy Thursday service you feel like you are in Rome. We don't attend it now very often because have chosen to attend the parish attached to our children's school. But until RKFDIL was four that is where we went so we got four years in. There are a great number of homeschooling mothers at Assumption who are quite keen on everyone homeschooling -like me- and they can be for a lack of better words- like God's dobermans. Perhaps I'm naive, but I cannot accept the proposition that a Catholic school will ruin your child. Homeschooling is wonderful in many ways and who knows, maybe someday we will. Mr. P and I (and their godparents) felt that it was important for the kids to go to school as part of being be immersed in the Catholic lifestyle.

I understand there are many flaws in Catholic parishes, however, but many serious Catholics do not understand the relief it is to just attend church that knows who it is even if the priests and parishoners don't.

As an example, when I was an Episcopalian, I had a meeting with the rector for some reason. He had just come back from a meeting with the local Catholic bishop. The bishop had called together all the denominations in our town to discuss euthanasia because of Jack the dripper's (Kervorkian) cause had made it to a ballot proposal. The bishop wanted all the churches to work together to educate their flocks on how seriously wrong this was. My rector explained to me smiling how he told the bishop he could not be of any help because the Episcopal church has no teaching on euthanasia... I asked him what about "Thous shall not kill"? He said that did not apply. He then went on explaining to me why. I came home feeling like I was nuts. So what did I do? I picked up the phone and called one of those African bishops and told him what just had occured. The African bishop told me I was right and explained the rector's dodge in clear theological terms as far of the destruction of the Episcopal church. The truly frightening thing was my rector was quite proud of himself and proud of his church for having no teaching on euthanasia. He thought it meant they were willing to wrestle with issues, not afraid to think yadayadayadayada.

Even a Folk mass has to be better then living through what we did in the Episcopal church......

For a lark, look up Blue Christmas service(s) and see what the Episcopal church is up to in the name of Elvis......

stephenesque

Surely Dorothy Sayers is roasting in the hottest pits of Hell on account of those awful Lord Peter Wimpy book?

Mrs. Peperium

Oh Stephenesque, now are you trying to be Scroogesque? Perhaps it is more fitting (and charitable) to look at Dorothy Sayers' books as books for girls? I enjoy Sayers' work, especially Wimsey.

Men are generally better writers. Dorothy was certainly very good but not the best.

Fr. M

Mrs. P.,
"Apostolicae Curae" was upheld in 1998 by the then-head of the CDF, Cardinal Razinger. Believe me, I have suffered over many a party and many a family dinner over the concept of "Absolutely null..."

There are all manner of Catholic homeschoolers ranging from the "Catholic Amish" in formless homemade cotton jumpers and black veils to the granola "Let me tell you about ecological breast feeding" variety and everything in between. The ones I most often consort with are wonderful, educated, witty people of faith. It is definately not for everyone especially if you have a great Catholic school nearby. A lady I know was receiving pressure to homeschool from ladies of the more "Catholic Amish" variety and she responded, "I can't even teach my six year old to shake my martinis correctly! How am I going to teach her algebra?"

stephenesque

I was only joking. I actually think women write the best mystery fiction.
If you have not read her you might like Margery Allingham, especially "The Tiger in the Smoke" since it contains theological matter.

Mrs. Peperium

Stephenesque, thanks, I'll have to look in to her. Mystery fiction is something I've always been meaning to spend more time with. I could use a month or two at one of those old great barn of a places on the coast of Maine where they have lots of wholesome activities for the kids and Mr. P and I could just sit, gaze out at the sea, and catch up on our reading.

Father M., going back to the extreme caution, great boredom ahead zone for a minute - does this English rite thing so many are keen on involves the priests standing facing the altar? Do they stand in a line of three, right behind each other? Because if so, now I understand your Nashotah House comment far better. St. Thomas (Episcopal) in NYC performs its services with the three priests facing the altar and then after consecration the biggest guy, turns and walks towards the congregation and says, "Behold, the Lamb of God" Those particular words are not in the current edition of the Book of Common Prayer. Nor in the '28 prayer book version which is the one St. Thomas employs much to the continued frutration of the men and women in miters, but I digress... I kept trying to find those words somewhere in the Book of Common Prayer but couldn't so I figured the priests were using an Australin rite or something... Though I did finally found them in the Catholic Church servies... However, it was through the grace of attending services tat St. Thomas back in my corporate wife days -that is, before kids and I could go with Mr. P on business trips. - that I came to fully accept transubstantiation. Witnessing the reverence THOSE priests had for the bread and wine (and at St. Thomas it is bread and wine because of what Cranmer declared it to be in the 39 Articles) helped me to fully believe the True Presence was absolutely true. Then I found myself in a terrible pickle. I believed in transubstantiation, but my Church, corporately, did not. In fact, its calls it a repugnant papist suspicion... I didn't live in NYC so I couldn't attend a church (St. Thomas) that let me continue in fantasyland that it is transubstantiation and not mere bread and wine like the Anglican church declares it to be. So I asked a fellow from 815 (Episcopal Church headquarters) what to do? My question was does this new acceptance of mine meant I needed to become Catholic? He was uncomfortable to say the least but then he went on to say that the Episcopal Church embraces a big tent theory of thought. Therefore if I believed it was transubstantiation, then the Church would allow me to believe that. I responded along the lines of but-we-are-talking-about-a-sacrament. If the corporate church denies the central teaching to the sacrament, then the True Presence cannot be happening no matter what anyone is thinking, believing, hoping, or wishing, right? He babbled on and then let on that he believed in transubstantiation himself. Which then caused me to go all folksy and say -I still can't believe I said this as I'm not even sure quite what it means - look if you want a black labrador retriever and all the breeder has is a yellow one and you take it convincing yourself it's really a just like a black one, you've still stuck with a yellow dog no matter how hard you try to convince yourself its like a black dog.

But the fellow from 815 was on to something that I was not intelligent enough to understand. After reading a bit and learning about what happened in Eliabeth's time's and for a time after, especially during Cromwell, what happened to the "Dissenters of the 39 Articles" (things like death or imprisonment) the fuzziness today surrounding transubstantiation in the Anglican Church is a direct result of Elizabeth's etal's iron fist attempt to squash that belief. Cranmer was put to death as a result for it by Mary. She forced him to declare himself over it and after much hedging about, he delcared it to be an empty sacrament. So she offed him as a heretic. Now the Anglican Church has made him a martyr. In fact his feast day is a big day over in England, with the Archbishop issuing sermons and everything. So the Anglican church clearly believes what he wrote is the truth. But one of the problems as a result of the Anglican Church's denial of the True Presence and because they are ashamed of their brutality of those Anglicans who believed in it, is that for a few hundred years they have been comfortable to allow a big tent approach to a very key sacrament. Sacraments are non-negotiables. Or else they have ceased to be sacraments.

Anyway, if the hangup over null and void with Anglican Orders is precisley about transubstantiation and Cranmer's very clear words on the subject, then no Anglican priest ought to deceiving themselves by pretending they are giving their flocks the True Presence. They also shouldn't embrace a big tent theory over sacraments. It's a very unkind and lacking in generosity to do so, isn't it? This is why I came to fear for my salvation through the offices of the Anglican Church.

Fr. M

Mrs. P.,
St. Thomas, NYC, is a wonderful place. I have only been there once for services in the era of wonderful Canon John Andrew, for Lessons and Carols. It is an Anglo-Catholic Church, much higher liturgically than your average Episcopal Church, staffed,as you indicated, by mostly Nashotah-trained clergy. The three men, lined up, at the Agnus Dei is a Tridentine accretion from the High Mass and I haven't noticed it in the Anglican use Mass which is more like a Tridentine Low Mass.

You are right, Transubstantiation is the key...

Mrs. Peperium

I've never been to a Tridentine Mass. Our Cardinal does not allow it...

Fr. M.

The position of the Holy See is very clear that this rite needs to be widely available to the faithful. For those who wish to worship in this traditional rite, I have no doubt that the Cardinal's replacement will permit it.

Christine

Mrs. P,
Here is a listing of Latin Masses in Michigan. Whether or not they're licit, I don't know--you'll have to do some research.

As to the Eucharist, I owe everything to it--or shall I say, to Him. The Eucharist utterly transformed me after my conversion, and continues to do so, such that I can say with St. Therese of Lisieux, "All is grace."

I recommend reading Fr. Robert Hugh Benson's autobiography. He was an Anglican priest (his father was Archbishop of Canterbury), and was part of an Anglican contemplative community for two years. He believed in the Real Presence as an Anglican priest. His is an interesting story. And have you read Cardinal Newman's APOLOGIA PRO VITA SUA? It was one of the first books I read upon my conversion. Beautiful. I sent a copy to my old friend, an Anglican priest who studied at Yale and was at St. Mary's in NYC for a while.

Christine

Oops, forgot to post the link:

http://web2.airmail.net/carlsch/MaterDei/churches.htm#michigan

to,

But since Mr. P and I used to be Episcopalians, it is our duty to help put all of this perspective for those of you fortunate enough to have never darkened the doorways of the Episcopal Church.

You really have no idea how glad we are that YOU aren't darkening the door these days. We're glad you left, and took your evil, your bigotry, your filth, your hate with you.

I suppose changing the Hymnal and ordaining women were tolerable nuisances, but letting gay folks in must have chafed worse than a cheap girdle.

Good riddance, P family. May you find yourself in the sort of church that you deserve.

Mr. Peperium

Ladies and gentlemen...

There you have it in the proverbial nutshell. Need we say more?

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